Talk:99942 Apophis

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Pronunciation

Yesterday I edited the article to say that the word should be accented on the first syllable, but Renerpho reverted it saying that I had not given a reference. What I said in my edit comment was that the o is short so in Latin the accent goes on the first syllable (as in Greek), and so in English it is also accented on the first syllable. What exactly needs a reference? There are several possibilities:

• In English, classical proper names are accented as in Latin.
• In Latin, the accent is on the antepenultimate syllable if the penultimate is short.
• The o in "Apophis" is short in Latin if it is short in Greek.
• The o in the Greek is an omicron, which is short.

In the meantime I am removing the incorrect pronunciation. Eric Kvaalen (talk) 07:22, 5 May 2019 (UTC)

It is questionable to label a pronunciation of newly set names as "incorrect". The name could be pronounced as in the television series it comes from (and I do not know how they choose to do it without watching an episode). It could also be pronounced in Latin, as one often does in English, and you give a correct, but probably irrelevant, summary of how that is determined. Or it could be pronounced as in the original Greek. I don't care which. Mlewan (talk) 07:42, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

Whether the word is pronounced with a short o in classical Latin is irrelevant. This article is about the asteroid. I have never heard it being pronounced with a short o by any astronomer (or anyone on the tv show, for that matter). It is usually pronounced with a long o in this context, and thus, the stress is on the second syllable. Note that this is mentioned as an alternative pronunciation on Wiktionary. Renerpho (talk) 12:26, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

@Renerpho: The asteroid is named after a mythological creature whose name is accented on the first syllable, because that's how it's pronounced in Latin and English follows Latin (when all the syllables are present). I suggest we put a sentence such as "Although the name of the creature Apophis is accented on the first syllable, many astronomers accent the second syllable." Eric Kvaalen (talk) 18:31, 8 May 2019 (UTC)

@Eric Kvaalen: We could add a paragraph that discusses the pronunciation, yes, as does Charon. Please note though that, unlike for Charon, there isn't really a debate about the pronunciation of the asteroid; it is pronounced with a long o pretty much unanimously. So it is not like those astronomers pronounced it wrong; it's just not the same word. We could write something like this: "The mythological creature Apophis is pronounced with the accent on the first syllage (/ˈæpəfɪs/). In contrast, the asteroid's name is accented on the second syllable." And we should reinstate the pronunciation /əˈpɒfɪs/ to the first sentence. Renerpho (talk) 19:20, 8 May 2019 (UTC)

All right, I have put in that sentence (with one word added). I couldn't bring myself though to say in the first sentence that it's definitely pronounced /əˈpɒfɪs/! Eric Kvaalen (talk) 10:49, 9 May 2019 (UTC)

I can help out there. Renerpho (talk) 18:43, 9 May 2019 (UTC)

Hi all (Eric Kvaalen, Mlewan, Renerpho), The asteroid was discovered 20 years ago, it was named 19 years ago, this discussion is 5 years old, and still, there is still not any reference given anywhere (neither in the article nor even in this discussion) to support the statement about the pronounciation. Either there are supporting sources to justify this statement, or it should have been purely removed long ago. "I have never heard..." is basically uncheckable. If there are no articles discussing specifically the pronunciation (and as a fact, only the spelling is officially approved by the IAU, not the prononciation), the bare minimum would be to provide a recording (e.g. a conference video) where the prononunciation can be heard (it wouldn't demonstrate that it is the majority pronunication, but it would show that at least someone uses this pronunication). (By the way, unfortunately but sadly unsurprisingly, Wiktionary is of no help on this point since not any of the sources in the article tells anything about pronounciation nor about the asteroid...) SenseiAC (talk) 01:35, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

My opinion hasn't changed. I still do not think it matters. If there is no information, there is no reason to try to say anything. (As the Greek said: Οὐκ οἶδ’· ἐφ’ οἷς γὰρ μὴ φρονῶ σιγᾶν φιλῶ. Or the Romans: Tu ne quaesieris, scire nefas.) Mlewan (talk) 08:37, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

@SenseiAC: My opinion hasn't changed either -- I still think it should be accented on the first syllable! I think it's good to tell people how it should be pronounced. In my opinion, there's enough justification for saying that it should be accented on the first syllable (as I wrote above, and we could try to find references for those four things I said). One could add that it's often pronounced with the accent on the second syllable. I don't really care whether that has a reference or not. I take Renerpho's word for that. Eric Kvaalen (talk) 09:39, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

@SenseiAC: e.g. a conference video -- Here is how David Tholen (the discoverer) pronounces it: DPS 52 Monday Press Conference, 26 October 2020 (YouTube video, with timestamp). For reference, this is the pronunciation used in the TV show, with the stress on the 2nd syllable (example), and every astronomer I have ever heard follows that example. Here is the first published interview they gave about the origin of the name, from August 2005, in which Tholen talks about the TV show, and how he thought the name would be fitting: Asteroid Apophis set for a makeover Renerpho (talk) 20:55, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

I wouldn't be surprised if Tholen was unaware that there was a different way to pronounce it. It doesn't matter though. At the risk of repeating myself, the "classical" pronunciation of the name of the mythological creature is of no relevance to the topic of this article. When Eric Kvaalen claims that people should be educated about how to pronounce it (that is, to put the stress on the first syllable), I believe they are misled by their affection for the classical sources, rather than the asteroid. I have no problem with having a clarifying statement in the article that tells people about how the name of the mythological creature is pronounced, but not more. Renerpho (talk) 21:03, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

@Eric Kvaalen, Mlewan, and SenseiAC: I just went ahead and added the link to the DPS 52 conference as an example of the asteroid's pronunciation. I also marked the preceding sentence, about the pronunciation of the name of the mythological creature, as needing a citation.[1] It's not controversial, but it needs a reference nonetheless. Strangely, I cannot find a good source that clearly establishes it, without the WP:OR step of implying the rules of Latin or Greek pronunciation. The Apep article refers to dictionary.com for the pronunciation, but that source conflates the two meanings, and is of no use. Maybe one of you knows some academic book about Egyptian mythology that provides proper pronunciations of names, and which can be cited in both articles (here, and in Apep)? Renerpho (talk) 20:39, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't have a reference for you. But I think it's ridiculous to call it "original research" to simply apply the well-known rules of Classical pronunciation! That's not what the "original research" rule is supposed to be against. It's not even research, let alone original. Eric Kvaalen (talk) 08:03, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

"Proposed" symbol

In Discovery and naming, we mention Denis Moskowitz's proposed symbol. Our sources are his 2008 book, and his website. I have two issues with this section.

1. The use of the image seems problematic for copyright reasons. I have just nominated it for deletion (see here for details). Copyright would probably be no issue if this was just a Unicode symbol, but...
2. Unlike most of the other symbols devised by Moskowitz (see here and here for the two latest examples), I see no evidence that he ever actually proposed this one to Unicode. When we write that Denis Moskowitz, a software engineer who devised most of the dwarf planet symbols in Unicode, proposed a symbol for Apophis, aren't we implying that he proposed them to Unicode, like the dwarf planet and many other asteroid symbols he devised? Until he submits it to Unicode, the proposal was for his book, and his book only, and I think we may be giving it undue weight here. Renerpho (talk) 02:48, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

1. Copyright isn't an issue for simple graphic symbols like this, and in any case the rights have been changed.

2. You could read that into it, so perhaps it should be reworded, but AFAICT Moskowitz hasn't proposed anything to Unicode. — kwami (talk) 06:12, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Proposed Foresight mission

In the section about the #Planetary Society competition, we previously stated that the prize was won by a concept called Foresight by SpaceWorks Enterprises. However, both of our sources (BBC, and the Planetary Society itself) disagree, noting that first place went to the team led by SpaceWorks Engineering, Inc. of Atlanta, Georgia in conjunction with SpaceDev, Inc., Poway, California.[2][3] If this is meant to be the same company then we need an additional reference for that, because the name is different in both sources. Also, why are we leaving out SpaceDev? Renerpho (talk) 14:58, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

If these are the same company, and the Planetary Society press release is simply mistaken, then I suggest that we add a redirect from SpaceWorks Engineering to SpaceWorks Enterprises. However, I want to make sure that we are in fact dealing with the same entity. Renerpho (talk) 15:10, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

IPA pronounciation

I think it would be useful to include IPA pronounciation in the infobox. Since there seems to be two possible pronounciations, both could be included. However, when I went to add them myself I saw there was already a line that seemed to include them:

| pronounced = {{IPAc-en|ə|ˈ|p|ɒ|f|ɪ|s}}, (trad.) {{IPAc-en|ˈ|æ|p|ə|f|ɪ|s}}

For some reason this part does not show up in the article, you can only see it when viewing source. I don't know what is causing this so I can't fix it myself. Can we do something so this line would be visible in the infobox? 4a617374726562 (talk) 10:34, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Pronounce and pronounced are mutually exclusive, and if both are used (like here), pronounce takes priority. Renerpho (talk) 14:58, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

@4a617374726562: I've removed the other parameter, for now. Renerpho (talk) 15:15, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

@Kwamikagami: Thanks for correcting and adding a source for the IPA pronunciation. Right now, the article reads

The mythological creature Apophis is pronounced with the accent on the first syllable (/ˈæpəfɪs/). In contrast, the asteroid's name is generally accented on the second syllable (/əˈpoʊfɪs/,

which seems fine, except that dictionary.com disagrees. See its definition:

Apophis
/ əˈpoʊ fɪs /
noun
Egyptian Mythology.
a demon serpent of darkness whom Ra, as sun god, destroys every morning at dawn.

We could use that as a citation if we wanted to show that the name of the mythological creature is pronounced that way (rather than that of the asteroid). What we're saying is the exact opposite, which makes this citation very confusing. To quote my own comment from April 2024: The Apep article refers to dictionary.com for the pronunciation, but that source conflates the two meanings, and is of no use. Renerpho (talk) 04:31, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

/a-POH-fis/ is an irregular pronunciation, since the Greek [and presumably Latin] has a short /o/, which wouldn't be stressed. I don't know about a source for the regular pronunciation, though. — kwami (talk) 05:01, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

@Kwamikagami: The classical pronunciations were discussed in 2019, and again in 2024. We based the IPA in the article on what's given on Wiktionary,[4] which is /ˈæpəfɪs/, /əˈpɒfɪs/. I think I'm also hearing ɒ, not oʊ, in the examples given in that discussion (like from David Tholen and Stargate). The vowel in the asteroid's name definitely isn't oʊ, and I'd prefer that to be removed again. As already explained, dictionary.com was dismissed then.

In that discussion, I originally asked for a reference for the classical pronunciation, but was overturned. Apparently no citation is needed for that. Renerpho (talk) 05:23, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

Yes, Tholen uses /ɒ/, with disyllabic laxing, which may be an American thing.

Random House 2nd ed. unabbridged has /oʊ/. Various myth'l dicts also have /oʊ/, though perhaps we initial stress [can't tell].

Not in Longman or the full 2nd ed. OED. — kwami (talk) 16:14, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

@Kwamikagami: Note that mythological dictionaries are irrelevant. The question is how astronomers pronounce the name of the asteroid, not how anyone pronounces the name of the mythological being. Renerpho (talk) 17:17, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

They're the same name, though N.D. Tyson also has an /ɒ/.[5] All of our sources are American, though. — kwami (talk) 18:04, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

References